Pro Wrestling Vs Sports Entertainment.

[jontees]

Which do you prefer?


There’s now a major difference between wrestling and sports entertainment. Wwe is sports entertainment. Nwa, Tna, Ring of Honor and other indy’s gear more toward wrestling. It depends on whether a company mostly tells stories in the ring or tells them backstage that’s the difference. See Savage vs steamboat at wrestlemania 3 to see what I mean by great in ring storytelling if you haven’t already seen it.

[uzi]

Hmmm.. guess I need help clarifying the difference. Both WWE and TNA do the in ring stuff, and both do the 'pretend behinds the people don't see the camera' stuff, though in different proportions. TNA has also had a nice couple of bits with camera footage that isn't back stage, or in the ring, with the Shelly Cam.
Personally, I always felt the difference was simply admitting that it's not a sport, though they are, indeed real athletes.

[Ryan Ro [NAPW]]

WWE has "Superstars", not "Wrestlers", they are "SPorts Entertainment", not wrestling.

It seems that WWE just wants the word wrestling banished, and they do episodic television. It's action adventure, it's soap opera! It's storytelling (crappy stories) and not calling moves!


Wrestling has all those elements, it's just not as much bullshit. I would suggest for all TNA's talk of being a true alternative, their in-ring is great and their storylines suck for the most part. The 'main event' with String & Double J last week and the game show? Ugh.

[uzi]

I don't buy it, changing the name of something doesn't change what it is. They call Britney Spears a superstar too, but she's still just a hack.
You can't even say the difference is the level of hype, because all pro-wrestling is is hype. It's ALL sports entertainment!!! Real wrestling is a sport, and what they do, be it ECW, WWE or TNA, it's not a sport.
Sport-entertainment is just a label, but peel off the label, and it's not much different them GLOW, the NWA, or any other league that ever put two men in the ring knowing who was 'supposed' to win before the bell.

[Ryan Ro [NAPW]]

Maybe Sports Entertainment is simply "WWE style"


And I dislike WWE style these days.

ROH!

[uzi]

Okay, that I can agree with, though they do have a lot of people I like, I really wish Vince would get a clue, and get off camera. Jerk off. But with guys like Benoit, RVD, and Angle in the game, there is just to much talent not to watch. True, I also tape TNA every week, for the in ring anction. (NOT, the two dimensional angles, etc.) and it was nice to see Christie Hemme again.
That said, I really would like to kick WWE bookers in the nuts. Where's Kennedy? (Kennedy?) {Kennedy.}, and the Boogie Man? Why is Edge fighting Cena, when his matches with Flair were so good? Don't these guys have a CLUE as to what chemestry is?
Watching WWE is half a train-wreck, and half top flight talent... but I do find myself fast-forwarding thru much of the matches (and most of their blah blah blah) of late.

Plus, I miss Tajiri, he rocked.

[Ryan Ro [NAPW]]

Umm...

You LIKE the boogieman? Seriously? He has what, two moves?
Kennedy is injured. Tajiri retired after Eddie's passing.
Edge is wrestling the CHAMPION. Flair's Flair, but what good will it do Edge's career to continue wrestling and beating him? Flair and Foley put Edge over so he's that much more viable as a main eventer.

I'll agree with you they don't have much of a clue, and that Vince should get off camera. At this point in time I firmly believe Vince is going to have to die before any dramatic changes occur. He's lost it as the years go by. Of course it's most likely that Stephanie and Hunter would take it over then, so...

we're screwed, basically. Well, there's always the indies.

[jontees]

admin said:

Umm...

You LIKE the boogieman? Seriously? He has what, two moves?
Kennedy is injured. Tajiri retired after Eddie's passing.
Edge is wrestling the CHAMPION. Flair's Flair, but what good will it do Edge's career to continue wrestling and beating him? Flair and Foley put Edge over so he's that much more viable as a main eventer.

I'll agree with you they don't have much of a clue, and that Vince should get off camera. At this point in time I firmly believe Vince is going to have to die before any dramatic changes occur. He's lost it as the years go by. Of course it's most likely that Stephanie and Hunter would take it over then, so...

we're screwed, basically. Well, there's always the indies.

Truer words were never spoken.... Austin vs McMahon as great of an angle/feud as it was. Led to the downfall of some other stuff as it made Vince McMahon, believe he was one of the superstars of his own creation. Wasn’t He supposed to find a new gm for raw as opposed to staying on the show himself week after week?

I prefer the matches of Samoa Joe, Christopher Daniels and AJ Styles to the blasphemy and mention of someone’s semen 10 times a night any day of the week.

[Ravager]

I still watch WWE, but found myself nodding along with Joey Styles' "Heel turn" on Monday. Funny thing, apparently many of the guys in the back agreed with Styles and couldn't believe he got away with what he did. This could be good news for the ECW relaunch (or internet rumors, who knows)

TNA has good stuff, but when the World Title is secondary to a Jerrett/Sting feud, things are not good.

I love ROH, and one of my friends recently turned me onto IWA Mid South. Chikara Pro also does some fine stuff as well.

["Sick" Billy Kryenik]

when it comes to wrestling i watch or follow the following:

Pro Wrestling Guerilla (When someone posted the link for the Human Tornado - i laughed my ass off. That guys been entertaining me for a while now.)
IWA Mid South (hopefully it doesn't shutdown.)
ROH (Naturally)
PRIDE FC (MMA = stellar)
CZW (The ROH vs CZW fued was/has been awesome.)

then the WWE. But i don't subscribe to cable so i watch stuff online and WWE is my last choice for sure.

[uzi]

We never got to see if the Boogie Man had any moves, but I wanted to find out. Besides, he's interesting, and fun.
As to Kennedy, I still wonder if he's freaked out about Eddie dying right after his match where Kennedy hit him over the head with a chair.
As to Edge wrestling the "CHAMPION", who gives a rats a$$, if the match is boring. Real heat comes from good matches, and wrestler chemistry, not a little strap of gold. Face it, Cena is only a hair more talented in the ring then the Rock, or Hogan. Yawn. Flair has in ring chemistry with almost everyone he fights, and that's something you just can't teach. There's a reason he's still wrestling.

As to Joey Styles "Heel Turn", yes, he read a script well, but anyone who thinks he 'got away' with anything don't understand how Sports Entertainment works.

I'd like to see some of these other leagues "Doomrider" mentioned though. Heck, we didn't even get ECW out here.

Sigh...

[stein]

Watching Boogieman in the ring at WM was just painful. I don't even know that he did two moves. He took a few moves (poorly) from Booker and then, after some red smokey distraction, hit his finisher. And I've had more impactful deliveries on my toilet.

[uzi]

Ahhh, see, I'm too cheap to see the pay-per-views, so I missed that. Good to know though...

[Ryan Ro [NAPW]]

The reason Flair's still wrestling? Owing the IRS over half a million in back taxes, and owing his ex-wife almost the same. Ding!

I think you're wrong to say that wrestlers who have 'chemistry' should be in the ring. Whether you disagree or not, the main titles are Important. The wrestlers who have them are at the top of the cards, wrestling in the highest profile matches, making the most money, and are the matches PPVs are sold on. The mid-card is that, the mid-card. Edge and Flair could tear it up in the mid-card but who cares? Ultimately it's less prestigious, less important, and less profitable for both of them. Flair is an icon, no doubt about it, but he should NOT be wrestling anymore. He can help the new generation learn in other ways.

Second of all, The Rock never had real heat? Which WWF did you watch? Some hate him, some love him, but The Rock earned the moniker "most electrifying man in sports entertainment." And truth told, in whatever ways he was limited, he is 10x the wrestler Hogan or Cena is. He sold moves like death, made his loves look exciting, and honestly, wrestled well with so many people. His off-the-charts heat made even matches against, say...Billy Gunn hot. Simply because Rock was in the match.

A similar argument has to be made for Hogan. He's less interesting to watch in the ring than Rock, who did 30+ minute matches at the top of the card regularly against Austin and Hunter (including an Iron Man match that is **** easily). But you can't watch old Hogan and pretend the heat isn't there. It didn't matter that his matches weren't technically sound. WM I had huge heat. WM II ... okay, less so. But 90,000 people crammed into WM III not to see Savage/Steamboat (which was phenomenal, but uh... check it: Only about 14 minutes or so compared to the long matches we get today)... but to see Hogan vs Andrew. Is the match good? Not really. Is the heat unreal? Oh yes.

Rock/Hogan at WM XVIII (I will not call it x-8) is the prime example of all of this. I couldn't believe the match when I watched it and I don't ever want to watch it again because I want to preserve the memory. The bar around me freaking out, the Toronto crowd on PPV freaking out. It was that thing, that thing that wrestling is missing today...

Truly, honestly, wondefully memorable.

So the comment is:

"Real heat comes from good matches, and wrestler chemistry, not a little strap of gold."

And you're entitled to your opinion. But I sincerely feel that your opinion chooses to ignore several huge factors in favor of your opinion and preference. Crowd reaction, which is stated above. Hogan wrestled shitty wrestlers, and the heat was still off the charts. Chemistry? What chemistry? Just send a fat heel after Hogan and watch the crowd explode when he hulks up. Second of all, individual character. The Rock, Austin, Undertaker (who has had more shitty feuds than any wrestler in history, swear to God), Triple H. These men can cut PROMOS like maniacs, and get the crowd rabid simply by talking. If you look at how wrestling functions, how important that little strap of gold is made out to be by every single fed with a title... from ROH (who have made their title possibly one of the most coveted in the world) to NWA (poor booking of CHRISTIANNNNN~ as champ aside, the NWA belt MEANS something again) to both belts in WWE... Triple H's entire character is based around how much he NEEDS that belt. The belts are important. The feuds around the belts are important. Winning the title is claimed by almost every wrestler as the ultimate goal of their career. Fans buy into title matches, pay money for title matches, want to see the heel champion (JBL, Triple H, Angle) get his ass kicked, want to cheer and celebrate and cry when the hero finally wins it (Benoit, Austin, EDDY~, Rey despite how botched it was).

Long, technical matches are my favorite, but you know what? I want drama just as much, real, emotional drama that makes me CARE about the match. There are tons of great matches with no story that are perfectly acceptable on their own, but lacking something else.

Here is my prime example of every element coming together: Great wrestling, chemistry between wrestlers, storytelling, drama, fulfillment, and... the title. Chris Benoit winning the World Title at WM XX, his nineteen year journey coming to a pinnacle. It was the greatest moment in his career, winning that little piece of gold. As a fan, and for many fans, it was one of the greatest moments ever. Without the belt, it would have meant nothing. If the match was subpar, it still would have meant a great deal.

But in that twenty-five minutes, the stars aligned and wrestling was PERFECT.

As far as one individual wrestler...Flair is probably the greatest of all time. He can wrestle, he can talk, he is larger than life. But here's another name: Kurt Angle. He wrestles insane matches, he is larger than life, he can talk, he has everything in one package. I wish dearly that he wasn't nearly a cripple because of it...wish that WWE would give him better than a transition run with the belt just because Batista got injured... wish he would retire soon, while he can still walk. But he has everything.

So please, tell me that Edge would be doing better wrestling Flair five months after their feud ended. You tell me that wouldn't get boring? Tell me Edge is doing worse by wrestling for the biggest title in the wrestling world today than languishing in the mid-card still feuding with Matt Hardy. Chemistry is great. Benoit and Angle have the most amazing chemistry in the history of wrestling. But I don't want it every month or every week. I don't want Joe/Daniels/Styles every PPV already, despite the amazing matches they have. TNA is full of great technical wrestling. And half the roster has no heat.

Ultimately these are my opinions, and you are entitled to your own. So please don't take this as me saying "I'm right, you're wrong." Am I confident in my opinions and do I believe in them? Yes. Absolutely. I'm also passionate about wrestling. So... take it all for what it's worth.


Love Ro.

[uzi]

Trust me, Flair doesn't decide how long he wrestles, the people counting the money do. Flair has still got heat at every arena he goes to, and even when he's not there, you see Flair signs in the audience. He's got ring savvy, and, amazingly enough, he still has ring skills. His ladder match with Edge was pretty darn sweet.

As to the titles, I guess I choose to disagree. If the belt is in the hands of a wrestler who has no heat, it's meaningless. I've seen it time and time again. Double J in TNA for example. He's the worst thing about that league, and having a belt doesn't make him any better.

I'm not sure WHERE you got the idea I said the Rock had no heat, he had heat in excess, and major mic skills. He just couldn't wrestle worth a damn. The Peoples Elbow is the second dumbest move in the history of wrestling. Only the worm surpasses it. His in ring chemistry would have gotten him an F in my high school. In fact, he's the perfect example of what I don't like about WWE, mic skills trumping ring skills. It's a rare joy when someone has them both.

Ditto for Hogan, by the way. I saw Lou Thez say his mother had a better leg drop then Hogan, aand I believe. Lou Thez! Damn, there was a wrestler.

Now it's true, as you say, that a single wrestlers heat CAN carry a match, but given the choice, I prefer Flair/Steamboat, sixty minutes of pure chemistry and skill, ot Hogan/Rock anyday.

Is chemistry all that's important? No, but where as I've seen Hogan matches get chants of 'boring', I've NEVER heard anything like that at a Foley match, cuz that man has mic skills, and ring skills. And he's insane.

Triple H is a real border line performer for me, but I give him his due, since he bled like a stuck pig, and REALLY sold Cactus Jack back before Foley retired, plus the man has ring cred with the fans that Cena couldn't buy with Vince's money. Decent mic skills, and decent ring skills. If he wasn't living in VInce's pocket though, I'm guessing he wouldn't have half the world titles he's got. Still, he's better then Double J.

But back to the title thing, YES, wrestlers build their heat around belts, but I feel you've got the cause and effect wrong. Wrestler hype the belt, so people care. If the people hyping it are wrestlers they care about. Where I live though, Wrestlemania interest was MUCH more focused on Undertaker/Markhenry, and the Money in the Bank Match. The title match was an after thought, because face it, triple threat matches usually suck, and no one really gave a damn if Cena lost the title, which, sad to say, he didn't. Heck, Cena was getting BOOED, AT Wrestlemania! At least that's what the recap I read said, and Cena seemed to back it up at the first RAW after the fact.
Point is however, the titles did NOT outway the heat that the feud of Mark Henry and Taker had built, and despite your opinion of Flair, most of the people I knew were really hoping he'd win the Money in the Bank Match, though RVD was a close second. Myself, I was betting on Sheton Benjamin, because Money in The Bank, much like the King of the Ring, are best worked as heel angles. Is RVD gonna turn heel? I doubt it, but it'll be interesting to watch.

I guess my point is, titles don't make great drama, the wrestlers do, title or no title. People cheer when JBL loses if he's got a title or not, heck, for an entire month they he wrestled the FIRST match of the night, usually against Matt hardy, as FAR away from the main event as possible, and he didn't get less heat then when he does have a title. Sure, a title can spice things up, but they are ONLY spice, not the meat and potatoes of wrestling. Face it, would you rather see the Ray/Eddie feed (classic television, with really gritty, dirty emotion) or Triple H v. Cena for the World title... again. (yawn.) Myself, I'd vote for the former. Would it have been spicier if it had been for the title? Yes, I think probably, but significantly? I don't think so.

Would I rather watch Edge and Flair wrestle, then and Edge/HHH/Cena three way? Any night of the week, because it would be more interesting wrestling, plus, with Edge and Flair in the mix, you know they would have found SOME angle to make it interesting, and I would have watched every match. Not only that, I realy feel Edge learned alot from Flair, and stepped his game up a notch, another plus to wrestling Flair, aside from an 'angle'.

(Speaking of 'Angle', my god, he's a category unto himself. Skill beyond measure, stamina, B+ mic skills, but A+ at playing the crowd. I watched his transistion from Heel to Face, DURING the battle royale, where he defeated Mark Henry. DURING!!! And without a blink. The man is pure talent.)

In the end, it's where you sit in the hearts and minds of the fans, not how many titles you've held that matter. Flair has held it all, so has Angle. But Mick could have walked away from wrestling without EVER having held major gold, and he'd be a legend today. Many thought Benoit would go his whole career without it. Ray got his first taste just recently. Was he less of a 'superstar' before hand? Not in the least. In the WWE you often become a champion BEFORE they let you have the belt, and it's the wreslters who have held it, that make it worth something, not the other way around.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we all didn't have at least one favorite who never did. Dirty Dutch Mantel was a regular jobber for WCW. I loved him anyway. When they put him behind the mic for awhile, he shined there too. Now I hear he's head writer for TNA. There's mine. Anyone else?